Winona Oak
Winona Oak
on creativity, politics, and her new album
Cariann Bradley: I’m a newer fan of your music, but I love your new album. I want to pick your brain about it — when did you start the album? I know it was inspired by this place you grew up, but how has it been releasing it?
Winona Oak: Yeah, I mean, it feels so insane to say that it’s out. It feels really surreal because it has been in the making for these last four years. Some of the songs I wrote four years ago, like “Break My Broken Heart.” I wrote that one when I had just gotten to LA and I wanted to write a song about daring to take a chance again. Then I have the newer songs like “Mother and Daughter” and “NDA.” It all got together to be an entire album that, looking at the time, it just got so spread out.
Cariann Bradley: That’s interesting. I would imagine it comes together and becomes its own thing because [the songs] were written so far apart.
Winona Oak: Yeah, that’s exactly it.
Cariann Bradley: What has the release been like? Has it been like you thought it might be?
Winona Oak: I felt like I would be more scared than I have been. I was pretty scared before it was released and then, as soon as it was out, I was like, I can only control this much, you know? And whatever happens happens. If people love it, they’ll love it and if they don’t, that’s okay. I can’t satisfy everyone. I can only do so much and hope that people will like it as much as I do. But that’s one of the things, I thought I was going to be more terrified, in a way, but I’ve just been really happy and I feel really good that it’s out. I’m really proud of it. It’s like a piece of me that’s out in the world and I just feel really good about it.
Cariann Bradley: That’s beautiful. I love the album. I’ve been listening to “Baby Blue” on repeat for days and days and days. [Laughs] It feels so cinematic to me, I just can’t stop listening to it. There’s a couple of songs that I want to ask you about but what inspired “Baby Blue”?
Winona Oak: It’s like when you’re stuck in the relationship — I’ve been in that relationship. Especially this one that I wrote “Happy You’re My Ex” about, as well. It’s just me being older and wiser and realizing how fucked up that relationship was and how I deserved so much better and I didn’t realize it until I was so much older. And “Baby Blue” was about saving someone who doesn’t love you and doesn’t care about you and it’s such a hard thing to realize, especially when you know that they aren’t capable of loving you back. I think, for me being older and wiser and looking back at my life through a different lens, that’s how “Baby Blue” and “Happy You’re My Ex” are almost the same.
Cariann Bradley: It’s so empowering — I feel like that’s happened to me several times with relationships I’ve come out of. It’s so empowering to realize that someone doesn’t have the power over you that you thought; you really just have all of the power yourself. Being able to give that back to yourself is nice.
Winona Oak: And it’s hard. Especially when you’re young because you only have so much to compare it to. And if you’re with someone, you know, people can be really manipulative and make you believe that you only deserve so much and you start believing it yourself after a while. I was definitely putting my self-worth in someone else’s hands for a while and I didn’t believe that I deserved more and I could only see myself through his eyes. I’m just so happy to be out of it. I’m so happy that it’s over.
Cariann Bradley: It’s so beautiful that you could make this beautiful art out of it that can connect with people who have been in the same place.
Winona Oak: Yeah. That’s why I do it, I think. It’s really healing.
Cariann Bradley: I wanted to ask you about “Mother and Daughter” as well because I love that song. I have the most badass single mom who is just a rockstar so I really loved that one. I’m guessing that one’s about your mom?
Winona Oak: Yeah, it’s about my mom. My mom’s been through a lot and she is the biggest fighter that I know. She taught me everything that I know about feminism and just being a woman in the world and being proud. Being badass. She is unapologetically so smart and so badass. I’m just really grateful to have her in my life and I wanted to dedicate a song to her, but it was so emotional to write it. I think I had to stop the recording process several times because I was just sobbing like crazy. I wish I could dedicate a song to all of the beautiful mothers.
Cariann Bradley: I should send that song to my mom. I’ve been thinking about her a lot lately actually. We don’t live close to each other but she came to visit a couple weeks ago and it’s just… the concept of growing up and seeing your parent as a peer — realizing that they are just doing their best, they’re kind of winging it like everyone else — is interesting. It’s such a fascinating pivot of your life that you kind of have to work with, or not work with and be disconnected with them. It’s just such a beautiful, new relationship that I feel like I have with her as I’ve gotten older.
Winona Oak: It’s so different when you grow up. When you’re a child, you see your parent as a hero who can’t make any mistakes. Then you grow up and see all of their faults and all of the things they did wrong, all of the things that, maybe, you wouldn’t have done yourself but you, you know, just forgive them. You create a totally different relationship with them. You see them as an equal human being, like as a friend. I just love having that relationship with my mom where I can talk to her for hours and even though she can drive me so mad sometimes, and I can drive her so mad, she’s still one of the — she is the best. And just seeing her go through all of the things she’s been through over these last couple of years. She’s just such a fighter. She’s the best. She’s a rock that I can always lean on. I wish I could have forever with her.
Cariann Bradley: I definitely relate to that. That’s been so present for me lately. I don’t speak to my dad, we’re estranged, technically, I guess, and my parents have been divorced since I was five. For a lot of the reasons why I don’t talk to my dad, I can’t help but think about what my mom also went through because of that. Realizing all of the things I didn’t know that she did and sacrificed when I was a kid, I just don’t know how she did it. Yeah, she’s a fighter. She’s the strongest person I’ve ever known. I can’t imagine giving up so much for my child, she’s just truly the best.
Winona Oak: You should see your mom more often. You don’t know with life too, it’s so fragile. That’s something that I really learned. Life is so fragile. We only have so much time and things can change so rapidly. It’s scary.
Cariann Bradley: Yeah, definitely. I’ll call her right after this. [Laughs]
Winona Oak: Do it! [Laughs] You never know. That’s like with my mom. I’m just trying to see all of the beautiful things. I’m really grateful for her. I remember when I played “NDA” for her. [Laughs]
Her eyes were kind of just…it’s her kind of song, like “[Gasps] yes!” When I was a teenager I would cover the house in ‘Fuck the patriarchy,’ just little stickers all over the walls, she would be so mad but she would be so supportive because she’s such a feminist. Whenever I write something like that, we can have the best discussions and talk for hours about politics. She definitely taught me a lot of things.
Cariann Bradley: That’s special. That’s what mothers should be giving to their daughters, especially right now in the world, you know?
Winona Oak: Yeah. Definitely. How do you feel about that? Being so close to everything that’s going on.
Cariann Bradley: I have been thinking about that lately, honestly. I don’t know, it’s just been tough. Even since before the pandemic, everything… I keep seeing tweets that are like, ‘millennials are just prepping for disaster, always, ever since 9/11.’ We got let out of school in first grade because the Twin Towers fell, you know? We seem to always be prepping for the next disaster, the next thing.
That’s also kind of a thing that you realize once you get older, it’s like, okay, I was born into this country that I’m taught to be proud of, just right out of the gate. That’s the whole thing here. Nationalism here is: you have to be proud to be an American and all of these things but you’re also being brought into a place that is full of so much shame and bad decisions and that’s all being put on the next generation as well. It’s tough and tragic. It’s tough being a young woman here. I live in the south and with some of the legislation happening, I don’t know if I’d be allowed to get an abortion here, I might have to drive to another state.
Winona Oak: That’s insane. I saw a lot of those things happening on the tour. I was reading about it and I was just like, they’re gonna investigate a woman who has a miscarriage, for murder? Then we have rapists running free on the streets. I’m like, what is going on?
Cariann Bradley: And the school shootings, as well. It can be really overwhelming. With things like that, it’s like there’s nothing I can do about that right now. I am very big on voting and using your voice and using your right to vote, but at the end of the day, there’s nothing really that I can do. I feel so helpless. It can be very bleak.
Winona Oak: Yeah, that’s what I wrote “Jojo” about.
Cariann Bradley: Really?
Winona Oak: Basically it’s about the feeling of being a helpless spot in the universe. There’s so much happening and there’s only so much you can do because money controls everything. The people without it can’t do anything about it. Things happening, even within my group of friends, seeing people that I love making decisions that are not good for them. In my family. Within myself. It’s that feeling when you feel like everything is just hopeless.
Cariann Bradley: Yeah.
Winona Oak: And with environmental stuff. Pollution, plastic…
Cariann Bradley: Do you read much?
Winona Oak: Yeah, I do read a lot, but I haven’t read in like three months now.
Cariann Bradley: Well, you’ve been busy. [Laughs] So that’s valid. But there’s this book called The Overstory by Richard Powers. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it. It’s about trees and it’s so good. So profound. I love reading stuff like that because it gets my brain turning about climate change and the environment, but it’s one of those things where, if we think about stuff like that all the time, we won’t be able to function because it’s so hopeless.
Winona Oak: Yeah. I’m gonna read that. I think maybe my dad has talked about that book, I don’t know if he ever finished it… I think it was too dark for him. He was talking about one book that was too dark for him that was about the environment but I think I would like it. I love reading anything.
Cariann Bradley: The Overstory is so good. It can be a little dense, but it’s mostly narrative and stories connecting back to trees. The whole theme is that everything is connected which is so beautiful to me. I love that sort of metaphor.
Winona Oak: I love that.
Cariann Bradley: I was thinking about a song the other day by The National called “Hard to Find,” which is on their album like three albums ago, but there’s part of the song where they address the elementary school shooting that happened several years ago that was one of the worst school shootings in American history. Hearing that song now and being able to relate to it because it is still happening is… there aren’t words for it.
Winona Oak: We’re moving backwards in so many ways. Historically, I think we’re moving backwards. With abortion laws and everything that’s going on, it’s like, what’s gonna happen next? Are they going to take our right to vote? I just hope that it doesn’t come to that point but it makes me sick to my stomach. Like, my grandma, her generation, they would have to do very unsafe abortions by themselves because they couldn’t afford to have kids and they had so many kids because there weren’t any birth controls. They had to do unsafe abortions and a lot of women died. They bled to death. Are we going to go back to that time? It’s so sad to see.
I lived in LA for four and a half years and I moved back to Sweden last year and I was just like — I still love LA and I love going back there and I love going on tour and being in the U.S. — there’s so much that I can’t relate to. It’s hard. Even with the healthcare system, it’s so hard. Here in Sweden, we have free healthcare, free schools… I wish everyone could access that and not have to think about insurance and stuff like that.
Cariann Bradley: It also feels like there’s so much happening here all the time that I feel ignorant about what’s happening in other countries. The healthcare system here is bad… our conversation here has gotten very depressing! [Laughs]
Winona Oak: No! [Laughs] It’s just a very honest conversation. Those topics are just as important as everything else. So much going on right now, it’s hard to ignore, hard to just close your eyes to that because it’s happening right now and something’s gotta change.
Cariann Bradley: You’re absolutely right. What’s it like for you touring and seeing people in different locations? How is that?
Winona Oak: This was my very first tour, actually! It was actually really exciting seeing so many different people all across the country. I saw all of the little cute cities and towns and the snow-covered mountains and the desert. Back to Canada. Back to the U.S.. It was really pretty and beautiful and I think all the people that I saw at the concerts were just so nice and supportive and just, I think, have been longing to get to a concert again because of the pandemic. It’s like they’ve been waiting for two years to see a live performance and the energy was really special and really beautiful. Extra special, I think, because of the pandemic. So that was really nice. Really, really nice. I loved seeing people’s reactions and to play live again; it was pretty wild. I was really nervous at first but then I was like, people are really nice, what’s the worst that could happen? [Laughs]
Cariann Bradley: I bet it is special, the energy of some people having not been to a concert in years, I didn’t even think about that. That has to be special.
Winona Oak: Very. It was so much energy. I think more than I experienced before the pandemic. It was just very energetic and people are just very engaged. I saw people crying and dancing, maybe kissing someone for the first time, and dancing with their friends — just the soundtrack to someone’s life.
Cariann Bradley: That’s so true! I love talking to musicians because that’s my favorite thing about music. You put so much of yourself into something, then you let it go so that other people can have it, to soundtrack their life and their love and friendship and heartache and everything. That’s the most beautiful part of music to me.
Winona Oak: I agree. It’s so cool that my experiences that I put into a song and then every other person that listens to it is going to think of something completely individual. All of their memories are gonna be put into that song and that’s going to be for every single person that listens to it. That’s a million memories in there. That’s insane.
“I saw people crying and dancing, maybe kissing someone for the first time, and dancing with their friends — just the soundtrack to someone’s life.”
Cariann Bradley: That is so special. I was a writing major in college — I graduated college back in 2017, so it’s been a while, and I hadn’t written much aside from stuff for l’Odet. I hadn’t written fiction in a long time and recently, I started writing a story and I feel like it’s pouring out of me. It’s the most magical feeling. I feel like I forgot what it felt like to do that. I don’t know why I haven’t been able to write for years, but in the last couple of weeks, writing this new story, it’s been magical. I feel like I’m connecting with my creative self again. I don’t know what it’s going to be yet. I don’t know if it’s going to be a short story or a screenplay, but I heard your song “Baby Blue” right when I was starting it, so it’s on my playlist for writing. It’s just been soundtracking this story I’m writing and it just feels so special. It’s nice and refreshing to go back to that, my root of creativity.
Winona Oak: That makes me so happy. That’s the most beautiful thing to hear. And imagine me reading your story and that inspires me to write another song. Like, how beautiful is that? That’s so cool. I’m excited for you!
Cariann Bradley: Thank you!
Winona Oak: I want to read it. It’s so nice when you get that feeling. It’s like you just open a door and everything just pours out naturally. It’s so cool how our brains can work like that.
Cariann Bradley: It’s so special and I haven’t, I mean, I told my close friends that I’m writing this story but I haven’t told many people and I wasn’t going to tell you… but it does feel special! Me finding your album and that song coinciding with this story I’m writing — I feel like I’m healing some parts of myself by writing this story.
Winona Oak: Thank you for telling me. That’s beautiful. And if you make a movie, you can have the character play my song in the car. [Laughs]
Cariann Bradley: [Laughs] Yes! One thousand percent.
Winona Oak: That’s so cool. That’s one of my favorite parts of music — when I see it in a show or a movie. That’s the coolest thing. You get a totally different meaning to it.
Cariann Bradley: What are some of your favorite artists right now that are soundtracking your life?
Winona Oak: There’s just so many different artists and vibes. I’ve been listening a lot to Tove Lo on this tour, I love her, and Leonard Cohen. I love Leonard Cohen, I always love Leonard Cohen. Even though, when I was playing him in the car, I think my band members aren’t as big of fans. [Laughs] I think Tove Lo was a bit of a safer choice for the sake of making everyone happy. Gosh, there’s been so much good music that’s been released. I love Charlie XCX’s new album. Christine and the Queens. What’s her song that I’ve been listening to nonstop? There’s one song. I also love Niki & The Dove, have you listened to them?
Cariann Bradley: I haven’t!
Winona Oak: They’re really cool. I love them. So many different types of music. I also have some dance vibes, but during the tour, I think we were listening to “Disco Tits” before every show and “Closer” by the Chainsmokers and Halsey. [Laughs] Those were like the two songs we were listening to.
Cariann Bradley: Those are good pump-up jams. For sure.
Winona Oak: Yeah. And then my bandmates really, really loved “My Man,” so they would play it also before the show. They were so sad that we couldn’t play it live because it couldn’t make it to the set since the set is only like 35 minutes. I might put it into the European set because it’s such a fun song to play live.
Cariann Bradley: What was your favorite song to record on the new album and, if it’s different, what’s your favorite song to play live?
Winona Oak: “NDA” has been my favorite to play live so far because it feels so empowering and special. I just loved seeing people vibing to it and looking people in the eyes and knowing that they feel what I feel. So, “NDA” has been a real favorite and “Piano in the Sky,” and also “Baby Blue.” Now I’m just saying all of them. [Laughs] Okay, “NDA” if I have to choose one.
Recording wise, it’s so different because all of the songs have such different vibes so it’s a little unfair. Crying to one song and then being very hype… Like, “Nothing to Lose” was really fun because it’s such a disco vibe, and also “Radio” was really fun because it has so much humor and it’s also very empowering and fun. I think those are my favorites. I also love “Yours Tomorrow” because of all the harmonies in there, it’s just so fun creating choirs.
Cariann Bradley: I don’t want to take up too much more of your time, but I really appreciate you talking to me and this was a really nice conversation. I feel like conversations like this are what keep me going right now and connecting with people who are making art is beautiful. I love your album.
Winona Oak: It’s been super nice. I love that it’s been so human. It feels really natural talking to you and not like talking to a robot. You’re actually asking me interesting questions and sharing so much of yourself. I think that’s very beautiful.
Cariann Bradley: Thank you.
Winona Oak: Don’t forget to call your mom!
Cariann Bradley: I won’t! I will right after this!
Photos by Julian Gillstrom.