Bishop Briggs

Bishop Briggs

on mental health and grief

I found Bishop Briggs’ music when I was 19; and at 27 now, I feel like I knew her before I even went into this interview. I found “River” exactly when I needed it, and Bishop became known for these bombastic, hype songs in my mind. One of the defining characteristics of Bishop Briggs is that she’s so active on stage — jumping and sprinting around while still belting out notes some people could only dream of hitting. I was surprised to rediscover Bishop’s music when she headlined Coachella at seven months pregnant — still jumping around stage, too! And at such a monumental career peak, she was going through a really difficult time in her life, having just lost her sister Kate to cancer the previous year. What surprised and impressed me was that even amidst her grief, Bishop was already willing to talk about it publicly, to openly analyze what it meant for her. Her recent songs feel charged with something new — a kind of mature and wise knowing, along with her signature themes of empowerment. Bishop was such a lovely person to sit down with; it felt like I was talking to an old friend. I hope her fans can appreciate this conversation; I hope you feel like you were in the room, because you were. ◇ 2023

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Cariann Hope: Hi, Bishop!

Bishop Briggs: Hi!

Cariann: So nice to virtually meet you.

Bishop: You too!

Cariann: I'm fresh out of the shower, bangs are a mess, so I appreciate you tolerating that.

Bishop: You look like a Zooey Deschanel dream.

Cariann: Oh my god, that's so polite. [Laughs] Thank you. I'm really excited to talk to you. I've been listening to your music since I was in college and I'm almost 28 now, so—

Bishop: Oh my god!

Cariann: It's been a while, yeah. It's exciting!

Bishop: We've grown up together. Also, please excuse my banana bread. [Laughs]

Cariann: Yeah, honestly! And I had some banana bread earlier, so we’re on the same page. [Laughs] I really love the songs that you put out in the last year and they're so personal.

Bishop: Oh, thank you.

Cariann: I know you've been going through a lot of changes in your life in the last couple years. Since the pandemic and before, probably.

Bishop: Yeah.

Cariann: What has that been like? I know that's a broad question, but what has it been like coming into this version of yourself and having to reckon with maybe it's not what you envisioned for yourself?

Bishop: There was so much undoing of the fabric of what I thought my life would look like that I was like, "Okay, why don't I just imagine what the new life would look like and do it?" And by the way, it is so subconscious. When I was living my life the exact way I was, but my sister wasn't there anymore, it was so miserable. It was so awful. But I did have to experience it. Even with change, that longing was still there, and it still existed, and I still had those moments where I reached for the phone wanting to call her and I couldn't. It was hard, too, because there were parts of my old life that we both liked together that are positive, good things that she would have loved for me to continue having in my life, but it has felt like I have had to become a completely different person.

I remember really early on, I met with one of my best friends and, I think what some people don't really understand about suicide or being in a depressive episode is that you feel as though you're offering so little to those around you that everything would be better off without you. There is this commentary around suicide that it's selfish and I feel it's not. Now that I have been in that headspace because you have these people around you and you can tell that they love you, but you're just this shell of yourself and this ghost of yourself — whereas before you feel as though, maybe, you could laugh with them or maybe give advice, and now you're just sitting in their car unable to say anything. And one of the things that my best friend said was, "I still see glimpses of the old you," and I just burst into tears because I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe that even if it was only maybe four seconds of me making fun of how she was parking the car, the fact that that was possible gave me so much hope that even if I was only 1% of myself, for a little while, there was still that 1% and for me, that 1% represented my sister and the joy that she exuded and had in life.

To be clear, I'm a terrible parallel parker, and so, the joke is that I was... It doesn't matter, but the joke was that I was telling her how bad she was doing, but it really was that I am really bad, and she does a great job every single time. That was what the joke was. But yeah, but I think... sorry, I went on a little tangent.

Cariann: No, no sorries! Yeah, everything you're saying is so true. Well, firstly, what you said about being in a super, super depressive state or feeling like you're close to thinking about suicide or suicidal ideation, which I have been there, it feels so alien, like you were saying. It's like you're a shell of a human being and the people that are supposed to know you best feel like a completely different species. It doesn't feel possible that anyone could understand… and that is so scary to just sit with. Which is why it makes sense to me that people can't just sit in that feeling.

Bishop: Yes!

Cariann: I don't know, yeah, I see both sides. It's really tough when people are like, "Suicide is selfish." It's also just our brain. It's like, my brain doesn't work right! [Laughs]

Bishop: Totally. That's what pains me about that commentary is it makes it sound like there's a choice, and I think there are some people out there that are so fortunate that they don't fully understand how debilitating the feeling is.

I feel like you understand this, too, but it's like I had a lot of... well, I don't know if you relate to this, I shouldn't just project that. But I had a lot of disassociation from my body and just... It's a really weird feeling, and the main thing that I want to bring up is just — I wish that there were more resources. I felt as though I was completely trapped in the feeling. This sounds so barbaric, but it's like I didn't want to be sent away. I was already feeling like a stranger in my own house. The idea of being sent to some sort of facility sounded even worse. But at the same time, I found it really hard to find resources that were really helpful and not judgmental. 

Cariann: Yeah! Because even some of the most helpful resources still make you feel isolated and like you're other, you know what I mean? I actually relate to that so much. I've gotten to a point now where I've moved out of the city that I went to college in, where my assault happened. I've removed myself from that. I've moved out of my hometown, in which I had a really tough relationship with one of my parents who's an alcoholic. I've removed myself from that and I’ve been to therapy and do reiki and all these things. I'm in a much better place. I'm on meds.

I haven't been in that dark of a place in a pretty long time —but something happened a couple of months ago. I had this really weird dream. And this has never happened to me, but I think I was in such a depressive state and didn't realize it, but when I had this dream, I didn't feel like I ever woke up. I almost felt like everything wasn't real, and it was this really weird disassociation thing because I just didn't realize how poorly I was doing.

My first thought was I don't want to go to the hospital. I've never been in [in-patient] treatment for mental health, but when I asked one of my best friends who's a nurse in the ER, I was like, "What am I supposed to do when that sort of thing happens?" And she's like, "You're supposed to go check yourself in for at least one night stay in the hospital." That's just so scary. And it's crazy to think that because I feel like I've dealt with mental health for so long that me not doing that or being scared of that is, like, me not walking the walk, but it's just really scary.

Bishop: Also, I mean this is a whole other conversation, but bringing media into this, bringing history into this, what is there that feels supportive of this? I feel like everything we've been shown, and it sounds like we are from a similar generation where we probably we saw similar things.

It was a lot of being trapped, being drugged, being overmedicated. People not being allowed in, there being no communication, all of which sounds like a nightmare. I totally, totally relate to that and I'm so sorry that you had that. Oh, it's the worst feeling, and also, that's what was crazy too was having a psychologist not call you back. 

“…one of the things that my best friend said was, "I still see glimpses of the old you," and I just burst into tears because I couldn't believe it.”

Bishop: We don't have assistants and people that are calling on our behalf. We should have someone calling on our behalf saying what's happening. The fact that it's us. We're going through this thing and then someone isn't returning our call. I just think the whole thing felt... it just felt very faulty and unstable in a time where you really need the system to be... Even when you're saying, "I would have to check myself in." So, you would have to go out of that state that you're in, go in your car?

Cariann: Yeah.

Bishop: Okay, that feels already dangerous. Okay, well, what about an Uber? It's like that also feels dangerous in a whole other way. 

Cariann: And also, some people might not even have the capacity to move or get out of bed.

Bishop: Yes, of course.

Cariann: It really is... the whole conversation on mental health — I feel like the way that we've tried to put on our brave face and make it less stigmatized has... We've glazed over the fact that everyone's still winging it.

It's not a good system. We just have to figure it out and rig it in a really jank way every single time. [Laughs] It's like people who are really struggling with their mental health. For them to search for a therapist that's in their network for their insurance if they even have insurance. It's like how do you expect someone to do that when they're given no tools?

Bishop: Correct.

Cariann: It's a hard thing to ask of someone.

Bishop: Yes, and I remember when I was looking... I didn't know that I could get medication from a medical practitioner. I thought it could only be through a psychologist. Then when I learned more, it was like, "Oh, well, it's recommended that it's through a psychologist because you can get a deep dive of what's really going on, but there's no psychologist available for the next couple of months."

And what really made a difference for me was I was like, "I don't know where I'll be in a couple of months." You're struggling so much with the tomorrow, the idea of three months... So, I ended up going the medical practitioner route... And it was because a friend told me, "Hey, you can..." And it's exactly what you're saying. It's a bit rough around the edges. It was like, "This is the most common antidepressant. There might be this, but just go for it." It's like we should be getting the ability to really go through your medical history, your psychological history, your blood work. I mean everything, your brain chemistry.

But I'm so grateful that what ended up happening to me was, I went to the medical practitioner the next day and I had to go in and say, "I want to be on blank thing." And then he was like, "Yeah, that sounds good." This is crazy, but it literally saved my life.

Cariann: No, yeah, that's how I feel... In college, when I was diagnosed with PTSD after my assault, and when I first went on medication, it was the first time I had been on an antidepressant. The way it changed the way I can make decisions, I just never knew. I feel like I grew up in a family that stigmatized mental health and people who see a psychiatrist and your shrink and meds and stuff. And it's just really shitty that we're coming out of that, but—

Bishop: Yes.

Cariann: It changed my life completely.

Bishop: And then to see how this was created for PTSD. This was created on purpose for—

Cariann: Right!

Bishop: Yeah, I remember I had someone describe it to me as, say you broke your leg — and you're wearing a cast. And the idea is that the antidepressant that you're on, say in this situation, is the cast. But you're doing physical therapy today, and you're only able to do the physical therapy because you have that cast assisting you. For me, I would go through these before the antidepressant where I would be like, "I'm going to walk today." And I would walk, and I'd be like, "I need to do this every day." But then I would never go back because I'm depressed. Same with, I need to eat three meals a day. I would do that for one day and then I wouldn't be able to continue on. When I took the antidepressant, I got to practice those things.

Cariann: To actually be able to comprehend them with your brain.

Bishop: Right, right, and then reap the benefits of doing it consistently. Yeah, I mean it was... Yeah, really remarkable.

Cariann: It's really tough. I mean it's like there's no right way to do it.

Bishop: No.

Cariann: And it's tough to tell someone else that they need to do it because you should figure it out on your own.

Bishop: Yeah, and everyone's different. I'm on this side of TikTok right now and it's like Accutane TikTok.

Cariann: Oh, I've been on that.

Bishop: Oh, you have?

Cariann: I've been on [Accutane] four times, yeah. [Laughs]

Bishop: Okay, okay, perfect. It's terrifying because some people are like, "I'm so glad I did it, even though this, this, this happened." And then there's a huge... I mean, on the side of TikTok I am, it truly is 50/50 people's experience. It's like this is a life-altering thing with side effects of suicide and—

Cariann: That [the system] literally entrusts a 15-year-old to make the decision, and really, the 15-year-old just wants to feel good about themselves going to school, so what do you expect them to say?

Bishop: Totally, totally. And then it makes the skin worse at the beginning.

Cariann: Oh my god, it was so bad. It was so bad.

Bishop: Yeah, I'm just saying, in a weird way, I know this sounds like a terrible comparison, but I wonder if there was a part of what you're describing, which is like I was so surprised when I started taking the antidepressant, too, that it was such an enhancement of my life. I didn't feel out of my body. I felt, for the first time, in my body. I felt like I could actually be grateful for the things around me.

Cariann: Yeah, that's exactly how I felt too. People portray it as you're going to be catatonic. I'm just like, "No, I could just think through decisions.” That's what happened for me.

Bishop: And that's the thing. When you are so depressed, it levels out your brain to what may be a normal... Normal is very relative, obviously, but it levels it out in a much healthier way. It's on such an extreme, that's why you're on the medicine.

Cariann: Honestly, it reminds me a lot of when I was assaulted. I went to the school to report it and that was the worst part of the whole experience. That was worse than the actual occurrence of the assault because I didn't know who to go to, I didn't know what I needed to say. Then when I went, they didn't believe me. So, then I had to try to go get some other girls that had had the same assaulter to go with me, and they still didn't believe me. It reminds me of that, it's just a very broken system and how are we expecting someone who has PTSD and is traumatized to figure out how to navigate that system at 19? It's similar. 

Bishop: It is. I went with my best friend to the police station and there was an officer there, and he brought out a notepad and a pencil and he was like, "Okay, so tell me what happened." My best friend was shaking so much, and, I'm so glad that I was there because out of protectiveness for her, I said exactly what happened. And, by the way, the fact that it's being written on a piece of paper that can be disposed of and thrown away, this is so unacceptable. What are you writing down? We're sitting in front of you sobbing.

Cariann: Well, to your point, that is the most important thing amidst all these broken systems is the fact that you were there. It's the community that we make that gets us through these shitty realities.

Bishop: Right, but where are the advocates?

Cariann: I know. I don't know.

Bishop: It scares me how many people that do get assaulted on campus, and that thing of not being believed or, "How much alcohol were you consuming?" Or, "What were you wearing?" It's like, we're still experiencing that, and I feel like with college, there's a protection around the abuser. I wish that there was a change, I really do, because women need to be protected.

Cariann: Yeah — trauma-informed management.

Bishop: Women need to be protected and the amount of rape kits that there are that are now expired…

Cariann: Yeah, even to think, oh, this college needs to have trauma-informed management. They also need to have advocates for people that have been assaulted. They need to have therapists present in the session. They need to have a woman in the room if a woman is reporting assault to a man.

Bishop: Yes, right.

Cariann: Something that I didn't have. But I have trouble talking about mental health sometimes. I have imposter syndrome. I feel like because there's also this element of, I'm pretty privileged if I'm able to sit here and talk about my mental health and how I wish it was better and how I wish the system was better. Some people have to work three jobs and they don't get to think about the state of their brain because they're just thinking about the next time they’re going to eat. They're just thinking about survival, and it just feels like a losing battle kind of thing.

Bishop: Totally. I do think an acknowledgment of that privilege is really important. And, in the same breath, I think the idea of any of those women hearing your story and hearing you speak publicly about it or hearing what I have to say, I really think the last thing they're thinking is, "Oh, they have it easy. They're so privileged." Because the women that I know that come from all different backgrounds, they know that it's really bold to call yourself privileged when you have experienced sexual assault. When you have experienced any of the number of things that women go through on a daily basis.

Cariann: That's true. Yeah, I guess, as women too, we're just made to feel bad about a lot of things we probably shouldn't feel bad about.

Bishop: I know! I know. It's interesting, too, about your story with the #MeToo movement, because, for me as well, my entire life changed with the #MeToo movement. It was really impactful and powerful and I feel like the movement has had a lot of narratives around it, some negative. I personally just found it really helpful to just know that I wasn't alone. And, interestingly, when I heard stories from people that I deemed so privileged — it actually is this grand equalizer in a heartbreaking way.

Cariann: That's why I love l'Odet and getting to talk to people like you. My ultimate hope would be that one of your fans or someone who likes your music finds this conversation and just feels a new level of bond and understanding with you because of how passionate you are about mental health, and how passionate you are about community and helping others. The work that you've put in to be so open about your grief and about your art. That's the ultimate thing. It’s what connects all of us.

Bishop: Well, for me, it's just the biggest honor to talk to you, and your openness is helping me be open, so thank you.

Cariann: Oh my gosh, thank you. I'm honored. It's just literally crazy for me to think about 19-year-old me listening to “River” in my little Mazda 3 in my college town.

Bishop: That's so cute! [Laughs]

Cariann: I was so depressed. That song got me through some shit. 

Bishop: Thank you.

Cariann: Yeah, honestly, that's what is so fascinating to me about this era of your music, too. I'm very much not in a similar life stage — I'm single, I'm on my own — but to know that your music is there for when I do go through that. For when I do have a baby and when I do feel like I'm in this stage of life I'm not prepared for. I mean, it’s incredible that you make that to connect with people.

Bishop: I feel like this is a really exciting time for you. I felt like I went through the biggest changes ever when I was your age. There's this really distinct shift that happens and it doesn't have to be a bad thing. It can be a phoenix rising from the ashes and just you completely coming into your own. We're sold this idea of this negative commentary around aging, and then as we age, I’m just like, "Why is no one talking about this?" I feel so much more grounded. I feel... Obviously, these past few years have not been the most grounded feeling, but I've understood the difference between how I felt in my early 20s, how I felt in my teen years, and it does feel as though there is an understanding of self.

And that's the one thing that I am hopeful for with this generation is that there is talk around therapy... There's a commercialization of it. That's how popular it is and it's like there's apps. And I'm just like, "Wow, we're making meditation hip." There's parts of that that I feel really grateful for that I hope are helpful.

Cariann: Yeah, me too. And I mean now you're raising a child that's going to be part of this next generation. Has that been a mindfuck to think about like, "Okay, what am I going to teach to my baby?"

Bishop: Well, that's just interesting because I have a little boy. So, I feel such an obligation to raise someone who has an understanding of their place in the world and their privilege. I think the biggest thing that I want to teach him is about listening to others because I feel like sometimes men get wrapped up in this idea of, "Oh, I can't even do anything right," but if you actually just sat there and just listened, you would be told what to do. Because sometimes it really is just about listening and seeing that person as a human being. But what's interesting about raising a boy is... And I feel like it doesn't necessarily have to be gender-specific, but you see that they are innocent, beautiful, pure.

I truly feel anything that involves any sort of segregation in the headspace really is a nurture thing because that's not... There is a genuine curiosity that babies and young children have, and it's not to do with race, gender, sexuality. They don't care. I really feel that and it's interesting because I have always felt that deep down. But exactly what you were saying with religion and community, it can make a huge impact on your outlook and your understanding of the world, especially when you have an innocent moldable mind. [Editor’s note: this conversation has been condensed for clarity; disclaimer that the religion portion Bishop references here isn’t present, but can be inferred]

Also my husband is very in touch with his feelings. He's a Cancer and all of his other houses are in Cancer. So, he's this sensitive sweet guy, and I like that there is that... I'm glad that my son will see that there is an outlet for his emotions. To summarize, yes, it's the craziest thing ever, but it feels really natural and positive, but I did have to really sort my mental health first.

Cariann: That's beautiful. 

Bishop: And that's ongoing. There isn't a sorting and even what you were talking about with that dream you had, I've had these really destabilizing trigger moments that I wasn't expecting. And I'm still learning different coping mechanisms for when they do come up and when they flare up. I hope to continue to learn more. That's all I can do

Cariann: Yeah, I feel like that's the ultimate thing. I feel like growing up, a lot of the adults in my life didn't adhere to the belief that they still had more to learn.

Bishop: Yes.

Cariann: And I just always want to be that way, and honestly, it's funny because when I interviewed Sharon Van Etten in 2018-2019, she had a one-year-old baby. So, she was in a similar place [to you], and I'd asked her... It was something along the lines of, "What is most important for you that you want to teach your son coming into the world when it feels so complicated right now?" because that was towards the end of the #MeToo movement. I loved her answer. I feel like it all comes back to just admitting that you have more to learn and that you don't know everything.

“...sometimes it really is just about listening and seeing that person as a human being”

Bishop: Right, and when we were talking about how men respond to things, I find it so bizarre this idea of, "So what? I can't even hug you anymore?" That whole commentary. If I sat across from someone and they asked me what would be helpful right now for me to do or if they even said, "I'm so sorry, I don't even know what to say or do right now." That would mean everything to me because then I would maybe feel open enough to be like, "Oh, I actually felt really uncomfortable when you closed the door and it made my body freeze a little bit. Do you mind if we open the door?"

A man being vulnerable with me makes me feel safer. A man being like, "I have so much to learn because I don't know what it's like to exist in your body, and I don't know what it's like to walk the walk that you're walking." Yeah, it would make a huge difference. That's a huge thing that I hope my husband and I really show [our son] as he grows up — asking and being vulnerable and being open when you don't understand something.

Cariann: Definitely. Also, I'm a double Cancer…

Bishop: Oh my god.

Cariann: Yeah, Cancers are the best!

Bishop: They are. I'm a Cancer, too.

Cariann: Oh, really?

Bishop: Yeah, I know, it's madness. And then my other sign is Pisces.

Cariann: Oh my goodness.

Bishop: I know, it's a lot of water. [Laughs]

Cariann: Also, two Cancers in the same house? That's cool.

Bishop: I know and my baby is a Leo. He was so close to being a Cancer.

Cariann: There's so much emotional health in your house, I just... I wish I could live there. [Laughs] Well… I feel like I haven't asked you about your work very much.

Bishop: Well, this has been... honestly, this was way deeper and better than anything I could ever talk about with work, so thank you.

Cariann: Thank you! I did want to ask… I know you have “Baggage” and then an EP coming out soon, right?

Bishop: Yeah!

Cariann: Can we expect similar themes and sound to “Superhuman” and “High Water” or is it different?

Bishop: I hope to continue with the honesty and the lyrics and the directness, and to try and not hide anymore. But I hope, sonically, it feels like you're seeing me grow. That's my goal, and so I do think there is a bit of everything that I've done up to this point, but it does feel like its own individual thing and its own moment. Whether it's an EP or a song, it really is like a chapter of my life, and so sometimes it can pivot slightly sonically, but this feels like my soul on a platter in a totally different way. In some of the songs, I’m poking fun at myself in a lighter way and leaning into the fact that I have baggage and it's okay.

Leaning into the messiness of what that looks like because how we started this conversation, I really feel like messiness can be so beautiful. This is so random, but when you were describing religion, it actually reminded me of when I went off the pill for the first time. I had to go on the pill at a much younger age because I had endometriosis, so I had just been offered it and it was really helpful. And then I was this adult that had been on it for 10 years and I remember when I went off it and I realized I was a completely different person, and it was this unraveling of self.

Cariann: Really?

Bishop: Yeah. And what's crazy is if you look it up, people have break-ups because they're not actually attracted to that smell hormonally, and they find out they're really into painting, whatever it is because we're taking this hormone that is adjusting our hormones and it isn't a one-size-fits-all. There was a messiness to that time, and it was really messy, but it was also awesome. It doesn't mean that it wasn't difficult and hard and confusing, but being completely raw allows you to exist very differently in the world. There isn't much BS that you take when you're in that state and that's why I applaud you leaning into that rawness and allowing it to take over in whichever way, shape, or form it comes in.

Cariann: Thank you for sharing that with me. One of my good friends has PCOS and that shit is serious and not talked about enough.

Bishop: Yes, and how long have women been voicing, "Hey, I can't even go into work, I'm in so much pain." And it's like, "Oh, come on." And it's written off. It really bugs me.

Cariann: I didn't know that about the birth control pill. I didn't know that it could... But I mean, it's medicine. It's something we're putting into our body.

Bishop: Totally, totally.

Cariann: I think you're right. If I look back on my early 20s or specific situations that feel really messy to me, which is honestly hard because I feel like I'm a perfectionist and I'm like I just want my life to have had this linear progression and me to have grown up normal and to be put together. And that's just totally not the case. 

Bishop: And it isn't for anyone.

Cariann: Right! Grief, uncertainty, and mess are all energies that push you and propel you to the next stage of life.

Bishop: Yes!

Cariann: Which is like... You're right, it's exciting. It sucks, but it's also like I'm changing, I'm moving. I'm moving through the world.

Bishop: Yes, I'm not stagnant.

Cariann: And some people are. 

Bishop: Yeah, and that's why it does pain me with the older generation when they don't do that self-work. I feel like a lot of the stuff that I've spoken to my parents about is them asking me, "What is helpful for me to say right now?" Sometimes it is about setting that boundary and saying, "This is what I'd appreciate you saying." It's not an attack, it's not anything, it's just that it's important that we have this conversation. And that openness and that vulnerability I feel comes from self-work and being like, "I don't have all the answers, and it's okay. And so, what can I do with that?"

Cariann: Definitely. Yeah, that's how I want to be. I want to just say that I don't know anything. I still have so much to learn.

Bishop: Because you and I know that that means power and strength and massive intelligence. It's just crazy that there's another narrative out there about being like, "I actually don't know the answer to that." I feel like that opens a whole conversation where we can come up with it together. We can leave breadcrumbs and figure out the path together.

Cariann: Yeah, totally right. Yeah, I really just appreciate you talking to me.

Bishop: Me too. I'm happy.

Cariann: I don't want to take too much more of your time.

Bishop: Oh, I can't thank you enough.

Cariann: I did want to ask if there was anything else top of mind that you wanted to talk about or anything that you felt like you didn't get to say?

Bishop: No, I mean you're amazing. The only thing I wanted to say was do you have a podcast?

Cariann: I don't. Do you mean do I make one? Talk on a podcast?

Bishop: Yeah.

Cariann: No, I don't have one.

Bishop: You should.

Cariann: I've had people tell me that before.

Bishop: If that feels exciting and positive to you, you would be very good.

Cariann: Thank you. That's nice. Yeah, people have told me that before, but I don't listen to podcasts myself, so I'm like, "Why would anyone want to listen to my voice on record?"

Bishop: Because, first of all, your voice is very soothing, which is a big part of being a podcaster. But also, I think the most refreshing thing about podcasts that people are truly consuming is you feel as though you're in the room with them. And therefore, it goes with what your goal has been, which is to make people feel less alone and to talk about things that people aren't talking about. The idea of hearing that on audio... Yeah, a version of it in audio, I think could be interesting. Even if you just took the audio from this and took what you wanted for the writing, but, I don't know, it could be cool.

Cariann: That's a good idea. I mean sometimes people don't have time to sit down and read a 10-page interview, which I respect. Yeah, I'll definitely think about it. Thank you for telling me that.

Bishop: Of course.

Cariann: I really admire you and I really appreciate the privilege and opportunity to sit down and talk to you about these subjects and about your work.

Bishop: Same, thank you, and I hope I didn't poorly time my banana bread at the beginning of this.

Cariann: You didn't.

Bishop: Okay, I hope you weren't feeling like I was scarfing down banana bread as you were sharing your things.

Cariann: Oh my god, I didn't even notice, no. If anything, there could have been more banana bread. I would have enjoyed you doing more banana bread.

Bishop: Because I don't know why, but the minute we started, I was like, "I'm in my living room, you're on my couch in front of me." I don't know why, but I was just like, "This feels really natural, but I don't know why." But I just didn't want you to think anything negative from that.

Cariann: Oh no, I appreciate you saying that, but that's the gig. That's ideal.

Bishop: Okay, okay.

Cariann: We're just having a normal conversation. It's okay.

Bishop: Okay, good. Good, thank you. It was such an honor to meet you and talk to you, and yeah, I wish I could give you a hug after that. Oh my god.

Cariann: I know, I'm actually moving to LA in the fall, so maybe we can have a meetup.

Bishop: Yes, I would love that. Okay, well, let me know.

Cariann: Okay, I will.

Bishop: We'll do a little coffee date.

Cariann: Okay, but yeah, it was so nice to meet you.

Bishop: You too. Thank you so much.

*This conversation has been condensed and edited for clarity.

Interview By CARIANN HOPE  | edited by Kass Ringo | design by Madeline Westfall |   Photos By DIMitrI TZOYTZOYROKOS